In 1949, as the Cold War tightened its grip, Paul Robeson’s anti-war remarks ignited a national backlash—and Jackie Robinson was called to testify before HUAC. Host Dino is joined by historian Dr. Gerald Horne to unpack the politics, the pressure placed on Black public figures, and what this clash reveals about loyalty tests, dissent, and solidarity today. Aired live on 90.7 FM KPFK Los Angeles on February 14 2026.
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This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
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90.7 KPFA.
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Los Angeles.
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The whole run by a handful of greedy bankers and CEOs who nobody elected. What can possibly last?
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I'm going to tell you what I'm French.
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But you.
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Really only have to.
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Remember to put two words.
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DINO
We all know something is broken. Welcome to another episode of the segment news, Information and Analysis. I'm your host, Dino. So, yeah. We're back. Another wonderful Saturday. Oh, happy. What is it? Valentine's day writes ly. To all our listeners and all who are experiencing this day for what it is. And that's all up to you. Here in the studio, we all kind of came together and gave each other flowers and candy.
00:00:59:09 - 00:01:28:23
DINO
And all I got was a couple of bananas. So which is my go to, before every episode, just so that, you know, if you ever want to send some bananas my way, I'm here. So. Well, welcome to this other, to this bottom drive episode of The Signal, broadcasting on 98.7 FM in Santa Barbara, 93.7 FM in San Diego, 99.5, in Ridgecrest, China Lake.
00:01:29:01 - 00:02:08:07
DINO
And of course@kpfk.org. Donate today's episode. You know, we're going to get into a topic that for me, there's a lot of new information here. I found this topic fascinating. We're going to revisit a moment in U.S. history and indeed, arguably world history that still resonates today. And that is this issue associated with Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson.
00:02:08:09 - 00:02:38:09
DINO
This was inspired by a recent book by Howard Bryant, Kings and Pawns Jackie Will, Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson. In America. And as I got into the book, started reading, started research, and started talking to my producer who first brought it to us. I was like, man, there's so much going on here. So we're actually invited. My colleague and host, freedom.
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DINO
Now, who you just heard in the previous hour to join us and talk a little bit more about this topic, that we'll be discussing today at the intersection of, you know, some of the most historically relevant and arguably famous black Americans at one point in the history of this country, and some of the challenges that came as a result of living in that particular political climate.
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DINO
It was 1949. The Second World War had ended, the Cold War was accelerating, and anti-communist investigations are expanding across the country. At that point in history, being labeled disloyal could destroy your career almost immediately, if not overnight. And leader of that year at the Paris Peace Accords. Paul Robeson, the acclaimed singer, actor, athlete and intellectual, was reported to have said to have said in so many words that it was unthinkable that black Americans would fight on behalf of their oppressor.
00:03:41:21 - 00:04:16:23
DINO
The U.S., and in particular, fight against the Soviet Union. That call was widely circulated and debated, but the reaction in the US was immediate. On July 18th, 1949, Jackie Robinson, the trailblazing American baseball player credited with breaking the white dominated hold on American commercial baseball and becoming the first black man to join the major leagues, actually testified before the House un-American Activities Committee in response to Robinson's statement.
00:04:17:01 - 00:04:51:10
DINO
All the while, interestingly enough, affirming that he had a right to hold his views within that year, Robeson's passport was revoked. He was barred from international travel until 1958, and years later, in an autobiography 1972 autobiography named titled I Never Had It Made, Robeson would write that if he was asked to testify again, he would decline. Two towering figures, one cold world collision and the whole and a whole.
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DINO
Whole lot.
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DINO
Of powerful white folk behind it all in the background, the back scenes manipulating and managing a political climate that led to this story we're covering today. So we're going to examine the content of this book and have a conversation with academic, writer, intellectual, and host here at Kpfk, Doctor Gerald Horne, who again, you just heard on Freedom Now and the broadcast at 11:00 every Saturday just before this program on the Signum.
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DINO
But before we get into it, we do have to chat a little bit about the fund drive. So I want to, you know, introduce my fearless leader, the power behind the signal, my producer, Nella Barbara, who can tell you a little bit more about why this is important.
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NELLA
Well, good morning, Dino, and good morning to everyone listening. This is our Nella Barbara, producer of The Signal on Kpfk 90.7 and Fabulous Angelus. And we are in our winter fund drive. And I'm asking you right now, do not we do not think someone else will do it. You are the reason this station survives. Paul Robeson lost his passport.
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NELLA
He was blacklisted. He was silenced by powerful institutions. And yet he refused to bend. So we, as Kpfk, refused to bend for a $100 donation. You received Doctor Gerald Horne's book, Paul Robeson, the Artist as Revolutionary, a powerful, uncompromising biography of a man who would not bow for $130 at one time, or $20 a month. As a sustainer, you receive the full Robeson Collection on My Journey.
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NELLA
Independent recordings, Kings and Pawns and the Clark James Lecture. This is not nostalgia. This is resistance. History. This is political literacy. If programing like this signal matters. Call now (818) 985-5735. That is 818985 Kpfk or go to Kpfk that August. Donate. I'm going to give that phone number one more time. Call 8189855735818985 Kpfk or online at Kpfk dot. Org's donate do not wait.
00:07:33:06 - 00:08:09:20
NELLA
Independent radio survives because you decide it should. The signal is not background noise. For almost a year, Dino has poured his heart into this program, bringing you serious guests, fearless, fearless political conversations, and real history. Today we brought we are going to bring Doctor Gerald Horn himself a legend. We volunteered our time. We did the preparation. We brought you substance.
00:08:09:21 - 00:08:29:17
NELLA
Now we need you. Do not assume someone else will call you. Call? Dial (818) 985-5735. That is 818985 Kpfk or go to kpfk.org slash, donate and do it now. Dino, back to you.
00:08:29:19 - 00:08:49:15
DINO
Well thank you. No. And indeed, you know, many of you may not know I actually have a history in this, station that goes back 20, 30 years. In fact, I was feeling a little nostalgic when I was listening to, Doctor Horn's program just before this. And at the end, when they invoked the name of, brother Don Kimathi.
00:08:49:17 - 00:09:19:00
DINO
I remember de Don very well. Was a friend of mine who we worked together 20 plus years ago in the community when he came back to public radio and, you know, channeling his experience and contributions. Here we are today. And again, we're taken on this topic, inspired by kings and pawns, Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America, a book by Howard Bryant.
00:09:19:02 - 00:09:47:09
DINO
As we're talking about this, the preparations for this program, the name that came to mind immediately, is one of the foremost experts on Paul Robeson, who has written books on him, intellectual, academic, professor, who is joining me now to better understand this political time period that we're talking about, where these two incredible historical figures, intersected at a point in history.
00:09:47:11 - 00:09:55:18
DINO
And, with that doctor, one, welcome back to the air and welcome to the Signal.
00:09:55:20 - 00:10:20:06
DINO
We're trying to connect with Doctor Horne. So let me tell you again the topic, folks, as we bring Doctor Horne back on the air, we bring him on the air. Let me set up the scenario. 1949. The Second World War just ended. The Cold War is accelerating. Anti-Communism is all around. Many of you have heard it made me have you have even seen excerpts and pieces of this on in movies?
00:10:20:08 - 00:10:44:16
DINO
Many of our audience may still remember this, and some may not. As this is way before your time. April of that year in the Paris Peace Congress, Paul Robeson, the acclaimed singer, actor, outlet and intellectual, was reported to have said in so many words that it was unthinkable that black Americans would fight on behalf of their oppressor and in particular, fight against the Soviet Union.
00:10:44:17 - 00:11:22:17
DINO
Now, keep in mind again, this is the Cold War period. For those of you that may or may not understand this history in our younger generations. This is a time and place where, you know, think about the conflicts that we have today with Russia, Vladimir Putin. Well, a lot of that traces back to this very period, the Cold War period on July 18th of that year of 1949, the acclaimed, trailblazing baseball player, the American baseball player credited with breaking the white dominated hold on American commercial baseball and MLB.
00:11:22:19 - 00:12:06:20
DINO
Right? And if you are a fan of baseball, you've heard this name a million times, right? Jackie Robinson, he became the first black man to join by all standards, the modern major leagues at that time. But he also became someone as a prominent black American who testified before the House on un-American activities Committee. In response to Robeson's statement, and did so in a way that meant to discredit what Robeson said about the concern.
00:12:06:22 - 00:12:50:07
DINO
And did so because of, perhaps at the behest of those political forces that were dominating the time. And placating, perhaps the American agenda, the anti-communist, anti-people color agenda. Years later or. Well, yeah, a few years later, Robeson became the target of persecution by the American government. The U.S. government. They would eventually revoke his passport. They would bar him from international travel.
00:12:50:09 - 00:13:21:16
DINO
Became a target that sought to silence him and in fact, used him as an example or make an example out of him. You know, Robeson feared that white civil rights allies might abandon the cause. Robinson. Rather, excuse me? Abandon the cause of black Americans if, in fact, black Americans at the time were painted as disloyal in a segregated country.
00:13:21:18 - 00:14:10:13
DINO
So that was part of his motivation, allegedly. And. Is that the reason why he would go before the Committee on un-American? To testify against them? That's something that, again, we're going to get into. So with that said, and a little bit, enough of me talking. I want to welcome our guests. And as I said earlier, our colleague and, ally, who was just on the air, in the previous hour, Doctor Gerald Horne, an accomplished academic writer who has been with us, for some time and is, you know, the foremost expert on Paul Robeson.
00:14:10:15 - 00:14:12:10
DINO
And welcome to The Signal.
00:14:12:12 - 00:14:14:06
GERALD HORNE
Thank you for inviting me.
00:14:14:08 - 00:14:35:05
DINO
Thank you for joining us. So, you know, we I was given, you know, a little background on this topic that was inspired by Howard Bryant, book Kings and Paul and Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America. And our focus really is, sharing the story that I think many still don't know or aware of. And of course, newer generations, much less.
00:14:35:07 - 00:15:02:02
DINO
But before we get into this question about specifically what happened between Jackie Robinson, Paul Robeson and how they played such an important, role on this American stage at that time, help us understand the political climate in the US at that moment. We're talking right after the war, 1949, the Second World War has ended. How intense was the atmosphere of suspicion and loyalty testing at the time?
00:15:02:04 - 00:15:40:07
GERALD HORNE
Well, the atmosphere is crucial to understanding the issue between Robeson and Robinson. That is to say, World War Two had involved, among other things, and anti-fascist alliance between Moscow and Washington. And in that context, you saw a certain retreat, anti-communism. But following the conclusion of World War 2 in 1945, you saw an escalation of tensions between Moscow and Washington, coupled with the Red scare domestically, that is to say, those who were seen as pro-social was Paul Robeson.
00:15:40:07 - 00:16:11:05
GERALD HORNE
Amongst them were demonized as enemies of the state. Now, this story have a local angle insofar as Jackie Robinson, although born in Georgia, grew up in Pasadena and attended UCLA and of course helped to desegregate Major League Baseball for the second time, that is to say, there were black people playing baseball in the latter part of the 19th century where they were all ousted and purged.
00:16:11:07 - 00:17:02:20
GERALD HORNE
But with the changing political climate domestically, post 1945, the Brooklyn Dodgers, the precursor of today's Los Angeles Dodgers, decided to sign Jackie Robinson to a contract. Therefore, Jackie Robinson became a prominent athlete in what was described as a national pastime. This is before the era when the National Football League surpassed baseball as the most popular sport. Therefore, Jackie Robinson was inclined to go before Congress and criticize Robeson because of those aforementioned remarks you noted concerning Robeson's comment, supposedly reportedly at a peace conference in Harlem now.
00:17:02:22 - 00:17:27:10
DINO
And I'm glad you point that out, because in our research, certainly for me, which, you know, I don't know, this topic, in great depth, I did take notice. And as I search more and more with every time that I noticed, you know, from, AP to others, allegedly, allegedly is one word that I kept, coming across in one variation or another, one form or another.
00:17:27:11 - 00:17:34:21
DINO
Did he in fact make those? How do we know? How did this not get documented?
00:17:34:23 - 00:18:12:12
GERALD HORNE
Well, it occurred when he said something to that effect. My own opinion is, is that whether he said it or not, I agree with what was reported. I'm sure people fight in Vietnam, fight in Korea, fight today in Iran and Cuba, etc. for a government that is maltreating and mistreating us so viciously. Right? But for in the late 1940s, early 1950s, there was a different political climate, and the left felt that they had to tread carefully as they sought to rally majority support.
00:18:12:18 - 00:19:01:15
GERALD HORNE
I should also provide a little background, please, with regard to Robeson, who was born in Princeton, new Jersey, 1898, passes away in Philadelphia in 1976, all American football player, baseball player and, of course, track star at Rutgers University in New Jersey, graduating with honors, going on to Columbia University, where he gets a law degree but for various reasons, turns away from the law and finds himself to be a star of stage and screen, particularly in one where he engaged in self exile for most of the 1920s and most of the 1930s, but alive with the rise of fascism and Hitler's invasion of its neighbor, Germany's neighbors in particular.
00:19:01:15 - 00:19:33:05
GERALD HORNE
In the late 1930s, Robeson, who had a family, decided that the better part of wisdom was to come back to the states of America, and that was a different political climate. Different sources noted there was the anti-communism was on the back foot because after June 22nd, 1941, when Germany attacked the Soviet Union and then threatened to attack the United States, then Germany's allies, speaking Japan on December 7th, 1941, attacked a U.S. colony of Pearl Harbor.
00:19:33:07 - 00:20:00:11
GERALD HORNE
The political climate was different, and so Robeson was saluted. He was hailed. He was honored. He also helped to establish reestablish his role as a leading Shakespearean actor, appearing on Broadway in fellow, for example, reportedly the most significant portrayal of Othello in the history of the portrayal of that character over the centuries, and of course, was also a star in Hollywood.
00:20:00:13 - 00:20:29:19
GERALD HORNE
There a local angle to that degree as well. Although Robeson, to be fair, was not necessarily proud of many of the movies that he starred in because he felt that either because the rate of scripts or poor editing, they did not necessarily, were not necessarily becoming of black people. And so this is the setting, this is the backdrop for this drama that unfolds in Congress.
00:20:29:21 - 00:20:46:10
GERALD HORNE
On the one hand, a celebrated actor, winger and socialist. Speaking of Paul Robeson, on the other hand, he celebrated Affably. Speaking of Jackie Robinson, the group in charge of Pasadena and UCLA, and Doctor Horne.
00:20:46:14 - 00:21:15:09
DINO
At one point, Robeson was arguably the most famous black man in the world. He was, you know, with all the other accolades that you cited. He was also a polygon. He spoke multiple languages, a radical anti-colonialist. But even that, with all of those accomplishments, with all within Hollywood and and he couldn't go he couldn't dodged the McCarthyism of the time.
00:21:15:09 - 00:21:22:20
DINO
The government revoked his passport, blocked them from performing abroad, effectively erased his public life that.
00:21:22:20 - 00:21:23:16
DINO
Was not.
00:21:23:18 - 00:21:32:23
DINO
That was particular. That was orchestrated persecution of the time. What did that do to him?
00:21:33:01 - 00:22:05:06
GERALD HORNE
Well, it was very damaging. First of all, as incomes drop from the six figures to the low four figure, as you noted, his passport was taken. So therefore he could have gone abroad, particularly back to his speed of exile, speaking of London, and earned a pretty, pretty penny. But without a passport that door was closed. He was able to go to the border between the state of Washington and British Columbia, and speakers would set up on the Canadian side of the border microphone from the U.S. side of the border.
00:22:05:08 - 00:22:37:13
GERALD HORNE
So you were able to give concerts to that degree. But obviously, that's lacking to a certain degree. His record, of course, you can find his record to a degree, admittedly and very at very high cost. But his record would be split fundamentally. And so he was not able to pursue that particular recording career. And then he outraged the U.S. authorities even more when he joined with a left leaning organization called the Civil Rights Congruent.
00:22:37:15 - 00:23:05:05
GERALD HORNE
We filed a petition at the newly born United Nations charging their state with genocide against black people. They published a companion volume entitled We Charged Genocide, which you can be found, by the way, and still book and multiple copies. But alas, this idea of bringing the United States into the dock of justice, charging the United States government with genocide, that we charge genocide.
00:23:05:09 - 00:23:40:23
GERALD HORNE
Bosnia has a litany of crimes committed with the complicity of the federal government Dixie government, Mississippi, Alabama, Texas, Georgia, South Carolina, Virginia, etc., including lynching. That is to say, execution without due process of law, including police killing, for example, which, believe it or not, were more rampant in the early 1950s than they are today. And this did not necessarily win him plaudits from the U.S ruling elite, which led to further attack on him.
00:23:40:23 - 00:24:23:22
GERALD HORNE
Attacks on those who were thought to be the scum read, for example. Sure, when people thought Jackie Robinson walking down the street, they thought that it would be wise to cross over to the other side of the street. For example, there was an attempt to isolate and marginalize them, but it did not necessarily succeed, not least because as Asia and Africa were coming to independent, the United States government was under pressure to do something about a terrible, atrocious apartheid policy, which led not only to an erosion of those policies, but you also saw government, for example, the government in New Delhi under, Prime Minister Nehru.
00:24:23:22 - 00:24:48:22
GERALD HORNE
And of course, the problem was familiar with Nehru of there, which will say in London in the 1930s, they began to put pressure on the United States government to release Robeson's passport. And Washington wanted to stay in the good graces of India, today's most populous nation likewise looks the most familiar with Kwami and Cuomo, first leader of independent Ghana West Africa.
00:24:48:22 - 00:25:10:01
GERALD HORNE
In 1957. They were acquainted with each other, with each other not only from income, stay in their own state, but also from their mutual state in London and the 1930s. And so the confluence of both events led to a agonizing retreat not only of Jim Crow, but an agonizing retreat from the persecution of Robeson.
00:25:10:07 - 00:25:36:22
DINO
Right. And let me let me read you, Doctor Horne. You're listening. You're listening to The Signal news, information and analysis here on Kpfk, 90.7 FM. On the line with me is Doctor Gerald Horne, accomplished academic, professor, expert on, among others, among many things, Paul Robeson. And this today's episode is inspired by Howard Bryant book Kings and Pawns Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America.
00:25:36:23 - 00:26:07:14
DINO
And Doctor Horne, you know, one of the things that Howard Bryant talks about in his book is this idea that black Americans have always had to navigate what he describes as a double bind, be patriotic, demand justice, been but never a appear too radical, never make white allies uncomfortable and never step outside acceptable dissent. And at that political climate, at that time in history, there was a whole lot of white folk behind the scenes in all of this.
00:26:07:16 - 00:26:14:19
DINO
Tell us more about this idea of double bind. Well, you know, being careful on how you tread.
00:26:14:21 - 00:26:52:04
GERALD HORNE
Well, it's very difficult because, hey, you have to realize that it's a different state that we're discussing right now. And states of the late 1940s, early 1950s. It was important for thought, I'd talk about in my book the fact that there were a number of victims who across the globe, including one that almost worked when he was in the state of Missouri, driving from Saint Louis to the city, the capital, the low on his higher were loosens, and it was expected that he would drive off the road to a certain death.
00:26:52:06 - 00:27:23:11
GERALD HORNE
There was enormous pressure on black celebrity, in particular, to hold the line right, because they felt that a they had income and therefore it was easier for them to resist Jim Crow than those who were ordinary working class individuals and, happy to say that a number of celebrities at a certain point were supporters of Jackie Robinson, excuse me, or Paul Robeson.
00:27:23:11 - 00:27:48:15
GERALD HORNE
You may recall the singer and actor Lena Horne, who was tied to the left for quite a long time. The same could be said for Duke Ellington, the composer conductor of pianos, for example. Now, at a certain point, so much pressure was placed upon them that they were forced to retreat. But it was a forced retreat. It was not a voluntary retreat.
00:27:48:20 - 00:27:51:06
GERALD HORNE
And that's what we have to keep in mind.
00:27:51:08 - 00:28:09:10
DINO
Now, later in life. In his 1972 autobiography, I Never Had It Made, Robinson wrote that if he was asked to testify again, he would not do it. Do you know, did they ever meet? Did they ever talk about this particular experience?
00:28:09:12 - 00:28:34:05
GERALD HORNE
Not, maybe informally, because, Jackie Robinson was playing with the Brooklyn Dodgers. Robinson was cited in Harlem as, you know, there just to slip way. Right? Sure. But the fact of the matter is, Jackie Robinson was under tremendous pressure at that particular moment. I recall that today, many baseball players earn in the millions, hundreds of that in.
00:28:34:10 - 00:29:02:11
GERALD HORNE
That was hardly the case. Right? The matter of fact, it would not be unusual for a baseball player to earn. And the fourth bigger, perhaps the five figure, if they were lucky. And so Jackie Robinson also felt a debt of gratitude to the management of the Brooklyn Dodgers, particularly the executive known as Branch Rickey. Branch Rickey went out on a limb to sign Jackie Robinson to a contract.
00:29:02:16 - 00:29:32:17
GERALD HORNE
Recalled to Jackie, Robinson was treated very shabbily and atrociously by a number of opposing teams, particularly in Saint Louis, which was a Jim Crow town as late as the 1950s, for example, treated atrociously by the Philadelphia Phillies players in particular, you have a number of baseball player who have roots in Dixie, and that is no excuse, for example, because of one of his teammates.
00:29:32:17 - 00:30:03:07
GERALD HORNE
Speaking of Pee Wee Reese, the shortstop also have roots in Dixie, but he apparently befriended Jackie Robinson, so there would be no restroom or Mr. Robinson. And I think that that's one of the reasons why. Robeson, in turn, was rather for in terms of he did not necessarily denounce Jackie Robinson for what he said before Congress, because I think he understood the pressure that Jackie Robinson was under.
00:30:03:09 - 00:30:37:16
DINO
Which is in his own way. He had similar pressures. You know, so both Robinson Robinson reportedly became disillusioned in later years. And you know, I presume a lot of the disillusionment came with what the political climate continued to be around race. But also foreign policy, perhaps. What was what was the deeper but what was behind that disillusionment, if any, parallels between them as they got older and became so, disillusioned by things?
00:30:37:18 - 00:30:54:16
GERALD HORNE
Well, Jackie Robinson, as he grew older, he became much more disillusioned with the United States. You write that, one of his books that he wrote recalled that Robinson also had ties to the Republican Party. This is not today's Republican share.
00:30:54:17 - 00:30:56:11
DINO
A very different time.
00:30:56:12 - 00:31:31:01
GERALD HORNE
This is the Republican Party. For example, Nelson Rockefeller, the governor of New York for a number of years, of course, Nelson Rockefeller was and other so-called liberal Republicans were rooted by 1964. When you look at the rise of Barry Goldwater, then Ronald Wilson Reagan, the governor of California, then he was president by 1980. And Jackie Robinson also returned home and proved because he became an executive of a once thriving restaurant chain chock full of nuts, for example.
00:31:31:03 - 00:31:50:06
GERALD HORNE
But his improving income did not improve his opinion of what had befallen him and what had befallen Robeson. He came to the world of found in his analysis of the United States of America, which was wholly and completely understandable.
00:31:50:08 - 00:32:09:06
DINO
Sure, sure. And as far as Robeson, I understand his disillusionment was grounded in just the way as well as he was treated. What was it like for him in terms as as he got older? How did he convey his disillusionment?
00:32:09:08 - 00:32:42:21
GERALD HORNE
Well, fortunately, there was a core of comrade that Robeson looks well understood from your audience may be familiar with. For example, in the early 1950s, he started the newspaper freedom. For example, one of the early staffers on that newspaper was Lorraine Hansberry. Wrote the play raisin in the sun recalled that this was a hit on Broadway eventually start.
00:32:43:03 - 00:32:55:21
GERALD HORNE
Sidney Quartey, you write, called that Robeson was a mentor to not only Sidney Poitier, who, as you know, has passed from the land of the living, but at one time was considered to be the brightest star in Hollywood.
00:32:55:22 - 00:32:57:00
DINO
Absolutely.
00:32:57:02 - 00:33:49:00
GERALD HORNE
Robeson was also a mentor to Harry Belafonte, the multi-talented singer actor producer. For example, in his memoir, Harry Belafonte Plays on Mars, Paul Robeson. And of course, there were the communist comrades of Paul Robeson. I'm thinking of William L Patterson, a lawyer, led the aforementioned civil rights Congress. I'm thinking of Ben Davis junior, another lawyer, Harvard Law School graduate who also was a city councilman from Harlem, elected in 1943, reelected in 1945 and out unceremoniously by 1949, and put on trial and then passed away in federal prison and Indiana.
00:33:49:02 - 00:34:18:16
GERALD HORNE
Robeson spent a lot of time raising money for Ben Davis, the firm, in fact, testified at that trial in Manhattan in 1949 1950. And so it would be solidarity expressed by the friends and comrades that helped to keep Robson on a steady path. Although I must say that at a certain point for Robeson, I think it's fair to say was clinically.
00:34:18:18 - 00:34:20:08
DINO
Right, and maybe that's what I was. We have.
00:34:20:08 - 00:34:21:03
GERALD HORNE
To.
00:34:21:04 - 00:34:24:06
DINO
Go ahead now. Go ahead, go ahead.
00:34:24:08 - 00:34:55:22
GERALD HORNE
But what had befallen him, what had happened to him? And this led to this, these extraordinary kinds of treatments that the electric pulse treatments, for lack of a better term, that did not necessarily work and may have worsened this condition. But alas, he kept up his trouble. But to this point I have not mentioned one of the most solid comrades in his corner who happened to be himself.
00:34:56:00 - 00:35:24:18
GERALD HORNE
Speaking of the blond Lopes. Who actually helped to steer him away from law into a life of performance because she was well aware of his excellent singing voice. She was also a world traveler and an anthropologist of some note. In fact, she was in China after the revolution of October 1949, and that did not necessarily win her plaudits.
00:35:24:18 - 00:36:04:03
GERALD HORNE
Even when she came back and spoke warmly about what she had witnessed there. But alas, she passed away in 1965, and it did not necessarily improve Robeson's mood when she passed away. And so what he decided to do was to curtail his globetrotting. He had traveled down Under to Australia to perform. He had traveled to New Zealand as well, engaged in acts of solidarity with the indigenous population, the bases and battered Aboriginal population all Down Under.
00:36:04:05 - 00:36:17:07
GERALD HORNE
But after his spouse passed away, he returned to live in Philadelphia alongside his sister, and that's where he passed away circa 1970 6th January.
00:36:17:09 - 00:36:54:21
DINO
And Doctor Horne, we know that at that, at that particular period in time, you know, the, the, the powers that be still very much dominated by Anglo-Americans, white Americans who were causing this havoc not only here but across the world. What role, if any, did the what I would call by today's measurements, our characterizations, the progressive whites played during this period for both Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson, especially on the left.
00:36:54:23 - 00:37:06:07
DINO
Did they have any particular role in how they provide support networks for the movements that they were being a part of? These two men in particular.
00:37:06:09 - 00:37:36:09
GERALD HORNE
Who's a mixed bag, and the previous litany, I could have mentioned that I should mention Harry Richardson, the head of West Coast Longshore. Well, born in Melbourne, Australia, obviously of European descent, let the San Francisco general strike of 1934 helped to desegregate the dock, not least desegregate the dock in Long Beach, Los Angeles, San Pedro. ET cetera. He was one of Wilson's closest friends and comrades.
00:37:36:09 - 00:38:12:20
GERALD HORNE
In fact, they collaborated together in helping to desegregate Hawaiian, before the rise of the left in that archipelago. And those islands. Hawaii was basically an a party town after West Coast Longshore and Robeson had finished their job. Hawaii was one of the most progressive sites under the U.S. flag. At the same time, I would be remiss if I ignore the fact that the AFL CIO, the labor movement, they tried to purge West Coast Longshore, they tried to purge Harry bridges.
00:38:12:20 - 00:38:37:20
GERALD HORNE
The U.S. government fled to deport him numerous times because he was fundamentally a chemical worker. The American Civil Liberties Union did not necessarily live up to their creed. During the reporter, they capitulated to anti-communism to a certain degree along with the AFL CIO, for example. So to repeat, it was part of a mixed bag. And of course, the NAACP.
00:38:38:02 - 00:39:17:06
GERALD HORNE
Sure was not defined as well. Their leader speaking of Roy Wilkins, whose roots are in the Twin Cities, Minneapolis, Saint Paul, he was one of the staunchest critics and adversary of Paul, along with his comrade and in the Boise peak leadership. Speaking of Walter White, who was frequently to be found in Los Angeles cavorting and consorting with Hollywood stars, so fundamentally it was a mixed bag with regard to the response of liberals and particularly white liberals, to what had befallen,
00:39:17:08 - 00:39:45:15
DINO
Doctor Harney. And as we wrap up, and I appreciate you giving us so much time. You know, today we hear language about enemies within. And these ideological threats. Back then it was communists. Today it's immigrants, I think through and through. It's always been, immigrants, are the what parallels do you see between the Cold War atmosphere you studied and researched so extensively to today's current political climate?
00:39:45:17 - 00:40:23:10
GERALD HORNE
Well, I'm afraid to say there are too many parallels to dimensions, right? First of all, I just returned from the twin Cities, for example, hearing very chilling story about jackbooted thugs and unmarked vehicles jumping out of these vehicles with masks on and collaring workers without papers and sending them off to an uncertain fate. I was told about how these U.S. authorities would follow over each drivers, because they felt that immigrant workers did not want to leave home, and they were getting food delivery over.
00:40:23:10 - 00:40:52:13
GERALD HORNE
801 then they pushed their way into the homes and collar, these particular workers. But at the same time, just like we mentioned, to help, there was a fight back against McCarthyism. There was a fight back against with here. I think one of the reasons why Mr. Trump and I have decided to engage in a tactical retreat from Twin Cities is because of the solidarity expressed toward the undocumented before example.
00:40:52:13 - 00:40:56:06
GERALD HORNE
Here is something that they call I listen.
00:40:56:07 - 00:40:58:07
DINO
I heard about this. Tell me.
00:40:58:09 - 00:41:04:06
GERALD HORNE
You are you are a citizen would fly Mexican flag on their vehicle.
00:41:04:10 - 00:41:05:05
DINO
That took.
00:41:05:07 - 00:41:36:07
GERALD HORNE
To the streets of Minneapolis, hoping that that would attract. Right. And then when I would be trained, would stop them. They would show their U.S. passports and that would deflect ice from chasing after the undocumented. So just as in the 1950s and the late 1940s, there was a fight back against repression. There's a fight back today. And I would like to think that our fight back today will be more successful than our fight back eight years ago.
00:41:36:08 - 00:41:41:20
DINO
Why, Doctor Horne, why is our fight back today going to be more successful?
00:41:41:22 - 00:41:42:14
GERALD HORNE
Say that again.
00:41:42:18 - 00:41:47:09
DINO
Why? Why do you think that our fight back today is going to be more. Oh, I see this one.
00:41:47:11 - 00:42:17:23
GERALD HORNE
Well, I think I think, I would like to think we're more knowledgeable today. For example, if anybody with the freedom now knows that we're presenting the historical account of what happened in the past that were not necessarily well known or popular in the 1940s and 1950s, and therefore our communities are more intellectually advanced, politically advanced, more radical.
00:42:17:23 - 00:42:54:17
GERALD HORNE
For example, less likely to be seduced by war crimes like so many were seduced by the war crimes that led to the U.S. intervention on the Korean Peninsula between 1950 and 1953. The U.S. intervention in Vietnam between at its height 1955 to 1975, and we are heartened by the anti-war demonstrations that are massive. We called the antiwar demonstrations 20 odd years ago when there was a war cry against Iraq, for example, tens of thousands taking to the streets, particularly in the southwest.
00:42:54:20 - 00:43:03:13
GERALD HORNE
Yeah. So that gives me optimism and hope that we'll be able to defeat the right, hopefully for all time.
00:43:03:19 - 00:43:46:00
DINO
And doctor One, you know, one of the things that I'm very proud of as, as a photojournalist, when I'm out there photographing some of the protests and events that are happening, the resistance of today against Ice and the current authoritarian government that we're all experiencing. I've seen an increase of diversity in this issue. And I'm, you know, I'm taken a move by just how many non-Latino white folks, black folks and others, Asians, I mean, across the board are coming out, and, and in a very resounding manner saying, you know, immigrant rights are all our rights.
00:43:46:00 - 00:44:12:07
DINO
We are all one here. And, you know, in the past, here in L.A., under proposition 187, for a period of time, there was this divide that, you know, promoted and advanced by U.S. government interest or not, where the black community and the Latino community weren't always seen eye to eye on this issue of immigration. But clearly, we've grown, we've developed, we've evolved in that.
00:44:12:09 - 00:44:35:15
DINO
And, you know, on the way here, I was talking to a colleague who asked me, you know, what's the topic today? And I was I said to him, you know, I think the story, the history of what happened to Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson and all the, you know, direct and ancillary impact that it had can provide a blueprint for not only the Latino community, but for our younger generations.
00:44:35:17 - 00:44:44:19
DINO
Why is it so important that today, more than ever before, black and brown communities see these parallels? And and how do we get to build on that even more?
00:44:44:21 - 00:45:12:17
GERALD HORNE
Well, I think it's important because, as noted a moment or two ago, the kinds of conditions that led to the confrontation between Wilson and Robinson have not altogether disappeared. Right. What I said a moment or two ago notwithstanding, I mean, for example, we all know about this, our model flotilla floating off the shores of Iran with the prospect of a conflict that could open the gates of hell simultaneously.
00:45:12:17 - 00:45:46:15
GERALD HORNE
We know about the attempt to strangle Cuba. Fortunately, Mexico has been sending humanitarian aid across the water to Cuba. But if we want to beat back the fascist attack, if we want to repress this warmonger, then definitely we're going to need not only class unity, but that class unity presupposes interracial, multiracial unity. It's called black brown unity. It presupposes unity across racial lines.
00:45:46:15 - 00:46:13:20
GERALD HORNE
For example. To a certain degree, it even presupposes, unity across ideological line. Because, I would like to think that many of our liberal friends are also opposed to another war that would drain money away from daycare and health care and education that would drain money away from treating and dealing with the questions of the unhoused, the homeless, unquote.
00:46:13:22 - 00:46:26:21
GERALD HORNE
And so there are multiple ways for us to stand shoulder to shoulder. And I am competent. I'm exceedingly confident that we will, in fact, stand shoulder to shoulder.
00:46:26:23 - 00:46:45:22
DINO
Doctor one, if I could ask you one more question and we'll let you go. And again, thank you very much for giving us so much time. And this is, a question that I've had in mind that I've, I've wanted to ask you many times before, and I appreciate you joining me here on The Signal. Not directly to the topic, but I think very much a part of it in this periphery.
00:46:46:00 - 00:46:54:13
DINO
What's the future? And this is something that I know you've talked about, and written about in the past. What's the future of white supremacy in this country?
00:46:54:14 - 00:47:19:03
GERALD HORNE
Well, that's a good question. I mean, you know, of course, of course, the fact that Secretary of State Marco Rubio, little, little Marco and Peter, right, right before departing for the Munich security conference unfolding in Germany as we speak, he spoke about the fact that we're in a new international situation. Right. Mark Carney, the prime minister of Canada, a double leap, said the same thing.
00:47:19:05 - 00:47:51:08
GERALD HORNE
Chancellor Merkel of Berlin at the Munich Security Conference said the same thing. What they are referring to is the rise of China. It's difficult to imagine that white supremacy can remain the same when you have as the leading power, an Asian giant. Speaking to the People's Republic of China. Now, of course, it would be premature, I think, to suggest that how this plot will unfold in coming years and in coming decades is clear.
00:47:51:09 - 00:48:43:00
GERALD HORNE
But right now, I would say globally, the future for white supremacy is rather grim. No, domestically is another question, although I do think that the global conditions will create objective conditions domestically for beating back white supremacy. But that's not a given, right? That is to say that it's also possible that just as the Trump coalition has involved 77 million voters across ideological lines, across class one, with the 1% getting tax cut and getting the genius act, which authorizes crypto currency trade, where the working class, the middle class base of the Trump coalition, they feel that it's in their interest to attack affirmative action, to attack diversity, equity and inclusion.
00:48:43:01 - 00:49:11:21
GERALD HORNE
That kind of ungainly coalition might feel even more jeopardized and under threat with the changing global environment, which might cause them to try to, for example, as it's been suggested, already empowered ballot boxes in November 2026 that the Republicans feel that they're losing. So I would say in some and in short, that the prospect well, white supremacy globally is rather grim.
00:49:11:23 - 00:49:13:09
GERALD HORNE
Domestically.
00:49:13:11 - 00:49:40:10
DINO
It's unclear they might double down. And as they see the, the, the impact it will have globally. My guest has been a doctor, Gerald Horn, historian, prolific author, one of the leading scholars examining race, empire, Cold War politics, and, of course, Paul Robeson, Doctor Who in this picture, both Paul Robeson, the artist as, the artist as revolutionary by Gerald Horne.
00:49:40:12 - 00:50:01:19
DINO
And, of course, let's pitch your program here on Kpfk. You're normally on. In fact, I've become a fan. I get to hear it every week because I'm driving in to do my own show. And, again, as I said in the opening, I don't know if you got a chance to hear it. I remember when, brother did I came out, I came back to Kpfk.
00:50:01:19 - 00:50:19:15
DINO
At the time, I was actually working here and, being moved and we became friends and allies. And, I'm so it's so, so dope to have you take those reins and tell us more about your program every Saturday.
00:50:19:16 - 00:50:46:01
GERALD HORNE
Well, yeah. So let me give a shout out to the Freedom Now crew. Sister Terrence, brother Brandon took the floor. We come to you, as you know, every Saturday, 11 eight from 11 a.m. doesn't. But I would say, our program on keeping on Saturday, including the signal. It cannot be matched not only cannot be matched in the 12 million market, it cannot be matched globally.
00:50:46:03 - 00:51:00:14
GERALD HORNE
It could not be matched domestically in particular. And so I would urge and encourage those within range in my voice to pick up the phone and dial (818) 985-5735. I think that is the number.
00:51:00:15 - 00:51:01:02
DINO
That is the.
00:51:01:02 - 00:51:01:22
DINO
Number.
00:51:02:00 - 00:51:18:06
GERALD HORNE
To our website, kpfa.org, and make a secure play, because we're going to need Pacifica and KPFA now more than ever as we get ready to beat back the fact, the fact.
00:51:18:08 - 00:51:26:15
DINO
That your home, thank you very much for joining the single we the signal. We appreciate you your work. Look forward to having you back sometime soon.
00:51:26:17 - 00:51:31:21
GERALD HORNE
Thank you for inviting me.
00:51:31:23 - 00:51:34:18
NELLA
And I'm going to tell you the numbers that.
00:51:34:20 - 00:51:46:03
NELLA
You are listening to, but you really only have to remember to talk to a signal that this is a good.
00:51:46:05 - 00:51:55:20
NELLA
With Mighty Dino, it's only on Kpfk, 90.7 F.M. Los Angeles.
00:51:55:22 - 00:52:03:01
MUSIC INTRO
I in the US, I live in Beaumont, sang in your.
00:52:03:03 - 00:52:04:20
MUSIC INTRO
Shoes and have enough time for tune.
00:52:04:20 - 00:52:26:07
DINO
And I say that again. Welcome back to The Signal. I'm your host, Dino. And again, you know what a fascinating, conversation. Discussion that because I was a part of it, but because of Doctor Gerald Horn, an accomplished academic. Listen, I'm, you know, feeling dope about the fact that he pitched on the show. That was.
00:52:26:11 - 00:52:27:07
NELLA
Me, too.
00:52:27:08 - 00:52:27:23
DINO
Right?
00:52:28:01 - 00:52:40:03
NELLA
Me, too. This was incredible. We're sitting here in the studio, and we are. Listen, we were all listening. Every single word that came out of his mouth was like a gold.
00:52:40:05 - 00:52:56:15
DINO
Yeah. You know, and again, to remind those of you, that are still with us, you know, sometimes we like to tune out, you know, we love the station, we support the programs, and then sometimes you say, oh, well, that's the fun, right? These guys are going to be asking this, you know, for support, for money.
00:52:56:15 - 00:53:29:11
DINO
And, like, the truth of the matter is that we're not asking you to support us. We're asking you to support what you just heard. Exactly right. The information, the content, the news, the analysis. As Doctor Horne just said, you know, this acclaimed historian, writer, academic, you know, there's nothing like that out there right now. And more than ever before today, as we navigate a world that's driven, that's really moved by micro technology, 32nd videos, small little excerpts, more than ever before.
00:53:29:11 - 00:53:41:08
DINO
Is it vital that we keep this kind of venue open and available for people to tune and learn? And it's a university education on the air?
00:53:41:10 - 00:54:01:23
NELLA
Absolutely. Absolutely. And this is a moment of decision. Every hour you listen to the signal, you are hearing something rare, right? Dino? Uncensored political analysis, real history, fearless guests and conversations that corporate media will never allow right now.
00:54:01:23 - 00:54:03:02
DINO
Absolutely.
00:54:03:04 - 00:54:32:06
NELLA
That freedom is not automatic. It exists because the listeners decide it should. And those listeners, are you for nearly, repeating myself again a year Dino has brought to you scholars, organizers, truth tellers. Today you heard Doctor Gerald Horne himself legendary, one of the most important historians of our time. We created that space for you. Our listeners now protected.
00:54:32:08 - 00:55:09:10
NELLA
If you value serious dialog, if you value history told honestly, if you value radio, that does not answer the two corporations, then act. Now pick up that phone and dial 8189855735818985 Kpfk, and also online@kpfk.org. We are offering gifts for $100 donation. You can receive Paul Robeson, The Artist as Revolutionary by Gerald Ford, whom you just heard, which was it was amazing.
00:55:09:14 - 00:55:44:14
NELLA
It was really amazing. And for a $130 one time donation or $20 per month as a sustainer, received the Robeson Collection on my journey. Independent recordings. Kings and pawns the Keller James Lecture. This is not just about books and recordings. This is about defending independent thought. No one else will make this call but you, so dial 28 9855735818985 Kpfk.
00:55:44:14 - 00:55:52:11
NELLA
Stand up for the signal. Stand up for the Kpfk. Keep Independent radio alive. Alive and call now Dino back to you.
00:55:52:16 - 00:56:14:06
DINO
Well, and you can also go to kpfa.org forward slash donate and listen. You can do it now. You can do it later. The important thing is that you do it, you know, a gift that we're offering. Kings and pawns, Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America. And this is author Howard Bryant, one of today's finest sports and culture writers who put together this amazing story.
00:56:14:06 - 00:56:54:22
DINO
I got captivated by it because there was so much there that, you know, I'd never heard of, and that this particular relationship, that happened whether or not it was between them, you know, Jackie Robinson, the trailblazing American baseball player that helped break the current, the color lines and in American baseball and on the other hand, Paul Robeson, you know, an accomplished, incredible, writer, playwright, actor, singer, academic, lawyer, civil rights icon, or rather, you know, social justice icon and they were pitted against each other in 1949.
00:56:55:00 - 00:57:05:07
DINO
You know, Robinson, Jackie Robinson, the baseball player, went in there and testified against him. These tips are available to you for your donation.
00:57:05:09 - 00:57:24:02
NELLA
Yes, indeed. So we don't have much time. The phone number is 8189855735818985 Kpfk option two, and also online at Kpfk. That organ donate. Do you know if you would like to close the show? That would be great. Well, I.
00:57:24:02 - 00:57:38:21
DINO
Just want to thank, you know, Doctor Gerald Horne, Sly rivers, our engineer, you know, la for always putting together these great programs and just encourage all of you keep tuning in. Stay with us. Support us. Don't support us. Tell you what. Support the station.
00:57:38:21 - 00:57:42:11
NELLA
Exactly. Support what we bring to you.
00:57:42:13 - 00:57:58:05
DINO
And we look forward to being with you next week. We'll have some special programing, but we'll continue to find a way if you continue to support us. 818955735 Kpfk. Dori, thanks for being with us. Stay tuned for the car show.
00:57:58:07 - 00:58:15:17
MUSIC INTRO
Will run by a handful of greedy bankers and CEOs who nobody elected. Can't possibly.
00:58:15:19 - 00:58:45:14
ANNOUNCER
From the Watts uprising to the present day, Kpfk has been at the heartbeat of the Struggle and Los Angeles. This February 20th, 26, we mark a monumental milestone the centennial of Black History Month. 100 years ago, Carter G. Woodson gave us a week to honor our past. Today, we celebrate a century of reclaiming our narrative. As we celebrate the centennial, we remember that black history is not a sidebar.
00:58:45:16 - 00:59:14:01
ANNOUNCER
It is the foundation of the American story. You're invited to join us throughout February as we honor 100 years of truth telling. I'm Stanley Clark, and this is Kpfk, 90.7 FM Los Angeles.
00:59:14:03 - 00:59:37:10
ANNOUNCER
This February, we're sending a love letter to our listeners. We're asking for one in return. Kpfk exists because of the passion in the hearts of people like you. We don't have corporate sponsors. We have you keep the romance with independent media alive by making a donation today. Call (818) 985-5735 option two or visit Kpfk.
